Nov. 11, 2025

When the Paycheck Stops: Redefining Retirement with Purpose, Peace, and Financial Therapy

When the Paycheck Stops: Redefining Retirement with Purpose, Peace, and Financial Therapy
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Season 1

What happens when the steady paycheck stops—but life keeps going? Explore the emerging field of financial therapy w/guest John Hankins, who combines decades of experience in business, finance, & social work to navigate the emotional & practical realities of retirement. John shares how financial therapy bridges the gap between money & mental health, to find peace, clarity, & renewed purpose in this next chapter. At age 71, he offers inspiration for anyone wondering what comes after “work.”

Ask Good Questions is broadcast live Wednesdays at 6PM ET on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Ask Good Questions is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

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or products mentioned on air or on our web. No

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liability explicitor implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio

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or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should

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be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

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W FOURCY Radio.

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Welcome to to Ask Good Questions Podcasts, broadcasting live every Wednesday,

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six pm Eastern Time on W four CY Radio at

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w fourcy dot com. This week and every week, we

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will reach for a higher purpose in money and life,

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as well as a focus on health and wellness. Now,

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let's join your hosts, Banita Bell Anderson, as together we

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start with Asking Good Questions.

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Hey, welcome to the Ask Good Questions podcast. I'm so

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glad you're here today. My name is Benita Bell Anderson,

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and today we have a very special guest with a

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whole field that I didn't even know was a thing,

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and so I'd love to invite John Hankins Henkins to

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the Proverbial Podcast stage.

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Welcome John, Thank you, Anita. I'm really happy to be here.

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Yeah.

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Well, John, you know, I actually when I first learned

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about financial therapy, somebody actually told me there's no such thing,

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and yes there is.

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So let me just tell you a little bit about John.

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He kind of started asking the question about, you know,

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what happens when the steady paycheck stops and life keeps going,

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and he started exploring the emerging field of financial therapy.

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And he combines decades of experience in business and finance

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and social work to help people navigate the emotional and

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practical realities of retirement. So he shares how financial therapy

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bridges the gap between money and mental health. And so

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his goal is to help clients find clarity and peace

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of mind and renewed purpose in a whole new chapter

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of life. So he says that he reinvented himself at

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age seventy one, kind of like me too. And really,

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I think what he's out to do is offer inspiration

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for anyone wondering what comes after you know, quote unquote work. So, John,

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is there anything you'd like to add to that?

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Well, I think one of the things we want to

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get into here is what is financial therapy. I want

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to counter what your friends holds you. I could start

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with that because I think it's.

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Yeah, because I mean, this person was, oh, no, there's

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no such thing as yes there is.

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I yeah, I know there is, so yeah, tell us

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what financial therapy is.

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Okay, So financial therapy is this idea that we have

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a relationship with money is another component of our wellness.

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It should be part of the mental health profession, just

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like we look at exercise, food, sex, all these other

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different specialties within the mental health profession, and money should

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be part of that. So to that end, this was

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a problem that was recognized on both in the mental

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health community as well as the financial planning community. Financial planners,

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we're getting people coming in, they were trying to do

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a plan. They couldn't make any progress on their plans

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because they had so much you know, emotional stuff going on.

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And on the mental health side, people were coming in,

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you know, with their their baggage. You know, I've got

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all this anxiety about money, and mental health professionals like,

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I don't know why think about money, I don't know what,

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I don't know what to do with this. So around

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two thousand and nine, those two professions got together and

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formed the Financial Therapy Association, which, yeah, which is the

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kind of the home of financial therapy. There there are

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other people out there that that use that label, but

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the Financial Therapy Association is the place where this really happens.

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There is a professional journal, an academic journal, the Journal

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of Financial Therapy. I think it's published out of Texas

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Tech University. It's it's a it's a peer view journal

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publishes quarter of it. It's actually free. You want to

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get into really geeky stuff, go check that out. There

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is a there's a certification process. There are about two

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hundreds certified financial therapists.

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Uh.

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So we we all hang out together at the Financial

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Therapy Association. We have we have a great annual conference

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every year. Next year it's going to be in Austin, Texas.

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Anybody's interested in attending. But it's a it's a very

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active community, and yeah, we come at it from all

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sorts of different perspectives. It's you think of it as

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an overlay. So there are people that say, you know,

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from the mental health side, cognitive behavioral therapy, that's my thing,

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and I apply here in the in the financial realm.

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You know, other people might come from the narrative therapy

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world and all these different peace is, but it's it's

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a very active, dynamic area and there is no shortage

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of demand. You know. I can't tell you the number

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of people that they reach out to me and say,

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I didn't know it was a thing. You know, I

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heard about financial therapy and I've been had all this anxiety.

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I didn't know where to go, and you know, here

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it is for me, for me, as you said, I

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was really kind of looking for where I was going.

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After I retired. I was doing a lot of nonprofit work.

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Where where Where did you retire from?

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Okay? So I spent about thirty five years working in

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various aspects of the information technology industry. I started out,

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actually you, as an administrator in a major university for it,

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and then went to work in the in the private sector.

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I did a lot of work in terms of early

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early meaning nineteen nineties internet work, not really technical stuff,

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but but helping to get colleges and universities connected to

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the Internet. I did that for about five years and

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I wound I wound up. I worked for IBM for

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about ten years. So, yeah, I was in and this

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was I started out with a master's degree in social

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work and went.

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Off and yeah, kind of went like this.

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Yeah, so I found myself doing a bunch of volunteer

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work where I was helping nonprofits with financial issues, budgeting,

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you know, those sorts of things. And I was saying

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to my friends, I'm actually a therapist because they are

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these people that I'm working with are so anxious about

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how to deal with with you know, now they're they're

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managing these grants, all these different pieces. And I picked

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up the Sunday New York Times. I looked at the

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business section. On the front page of the business section

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was an article about the Financial Therapy Association. I joined

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the next day. You went your wreaka that this is

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this is where I want to be. And so I've

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been this is I'm about my yea in my fourth

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year of working in this field, getting more education in

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this field, participating in you know, various aspects of it,

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and yeah, it's I think it's it's really interesting, important work.

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I feel like I'm doing something that is really fulfilling

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for me. I feel incredibly fortunate to have found this

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niche at this point in my life. And so yeah, well.

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How would you say.

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I mean, you know, I've been a financial advisor for

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twenty five years.

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How would you say?

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And actually, John, I have had people, there have been

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times when people have said, are you sure you're not therapists?

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You know, and I've never gotten a therapist license. But anyway,

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you know, we've always laughed about that because yeah, we're

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talking about a lot of things. But how would you

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say financial therapy differs from financial advising?

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Oh well, you have to look at it on a continuum. Okay,

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so they're there. There are financial planners that have a

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certification in financial therapy, and their application of financial therapy

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is really to provide a a more skilled and safer

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space for their clients. Okay, so when they see clients

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that are kind of you know, going off the rails,

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need to do some planning but just can't get it done,

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then that's one version of financial therapy in the planning realm.

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I think we're I come from on the mental health side,

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it's it's much more where the financial issues, which can

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take all sorts of form, really are dysfunctional. You know

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someone who has you know, addiction, you know where they're

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really really, you know, facing very serious life challenges if

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it's a you know, a spending issue or you know.

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I work with people that have considerable wealth and simply

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can't enjoy it, I mean, and carry around anxiety at

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a level, anxiety about money. Even though they may have

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a lot of it, they can't. It doesn't soothe their anxiety. Right.

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They thought if they had a bunch of money, they

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feel better. They get the money, and it's like, why

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do I still Why am I still worrying about it?

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Yeah, there's no purpose, there's no nothing, but the.

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Thing that I would.

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Can you think of some examples of like what would

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you like the challenges and the emotions that people that

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you see people exhibiting when they need financial therapy.

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Uh, well, I'll give you too common, too common ones.

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One is around debt.

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Okay, the people that have have very very good incomes

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but still have accumulated significant amounts of debt.

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So that's that's very typical. And they recognize this is key.

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They recognize that it's not just about somebody giving them

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a budget that they really need to work on their

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relationship with money, with their why have they accumulated this debt?

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What's you know, kind of what's driving them if it's

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you know, I mean it could, I mean it can be.

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And you a legitimate addiction. I only feel good when

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I'm ordering stuff on Amazon. That's you know, They're just

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like I only feel good about having a drink. Same

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you know, that's in the same, same little world. Uh.

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That's one. A second is that I work with a

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lot of couples. I think couples work is really important

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because money is such, you know, it is really such

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an area of struggle and the the just the area

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of shared finances, what I call mine, what's mine, what's yours?

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What's ours? How do we figure that out? And I

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think people and this may be more of a little

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more of a generational thing, I'm not quite sure. Well,

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I think it's it's definitely the more as we you know,

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every woman comes into a relationship has a job. You know,

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it's not like, oh I got married and yeah, I'm

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just I'm gonna stay at home mom right from the

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get go. So both members of the couple come in

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with you know, potentially significant income, significant wealth, you know,

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different different economic situations, and getting that sorted out is

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really can be challenging. Of course, I see the people

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where it is challenging. There's lots of people out there

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where it's not. But I see the one where it is.

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So I have a kind of a bias view.

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Why do you think that money carries so much emotional weight?

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Well, I think there are two kind of two areas.

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One one is outward that we live in a society

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where we are bombarded with the uh, you know, appearances.

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I have to have a cool car, I have to

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have my clothes. I want to know. Money is a

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vehicle for status, yeah, right, and the the the especially

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you know, with the way we live today, social media,

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all of this, we're constantly bombarded with here's the here's

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the thing you need. You didn't know you needed it,

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but here's okay, okay. So so that that there's that

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outward piece. I think the inward piece is that just biologically,

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we we live in an an environment of alertness. Right.

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I don't want to use the word here, but we're

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on our we could be attacked by a wild animal

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at any moment. We've moved beyond that, but our brains

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have not, right this constant and so we're always looking

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for security and money is such a big part of security. Right,

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So we're as human beings, we're always reaching for security.

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And one of the things that we're culturally. Okay, we've

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got the biological, we've got the cultural. Right, the cultural

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piece is if you have more money, you will be

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more secure. Yeah, right, so so one piece. Then if

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you don't have the money that drives the need for security.

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But unfortunately, for a lot of people, even when they

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they're making money, they're still feeling this need for it

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hasn't given them the security that they thought it would.

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It's kind of a you know, a false idol.

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What do you think, can you think of some common

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money beliefs that people carry from childhood? Have you seen

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something like that?

233
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Oh well, oh yeah, yeah, I've seen it from more

234
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than the childhood. I've seen this intergenerational piece. It's surprising

235
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how many people you talk to where you you as

236
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you start to dig into it, their money beliefs really

237
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rooted in their grandparents beliefs during the Great Depression. Yeah,

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that those things carry their handed down generation to generation.

239
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But certainly a common one is growing up in a

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household where there was constant tension over money. My parents

241
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always thought about money, you know, and then a reaction

242
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to that with amout of people is I don't want

243
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anything to do money is bad money. Money just creates problems.

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So I don't really want to have anything to do

245
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with money, which really that's sorry, that's really not an option.

246
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But the way that the way that they they that

247
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manifests itself is to become money avoidant. No, I never

248
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look at a bank statement. I don't know what a

249
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bank statement is. You know, I just get money and yeah,

250
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I spend it.

251
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You Yeah, Well, how how can those unresolved like emotional

252
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issues around money affect relationships? I mean, I'm sure that's

253
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something else you know that these issues can affect relationships.

254
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Retirement. I mean, we're talking about.

255
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Helping people who are making a huge transition from working

256
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their whole life into like the next next part of life,

257
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and if they're carrying those things, I think it cannot

258
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affect not only they can affect their physical.

259
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Health, right sure? Sure, well I think we were talking

260
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about retirement. Yeah, we tying that back to security, right,

261
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So we have a very concrete path that we culture

262
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and culturally lay out around security. We even call it that,

263
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you know, we call it social security. Right, And okay,

264
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so you're working, you need to have a retirement account,

265
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you need them for one K, you need to put

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money away, and so we we do that, and I

267
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think that that that plows a path, right, I mean

268
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we've both been down this path. Yeah, I'm putting putting

269
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money away every month. Great, I've been doing this for

270
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twenty years. Well, I look at my account and it's

271
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this is really great, how much money I'm saving. I

272
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feel secure, you know, tremendous sense of security. And then

273
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I wake up one day I'm going to retire, and

274
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I've built this neural pathway, right, this this whole relationship

275
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with that retirement account where I've just been putting money

276
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into it, and it's suddenly, now, okay, you're going to

277
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start taking money out. What I don't I don't know

278
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how to do that. Nobody nobody told me how to

279
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do this.

280
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What if it goes away?

281
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Yeah, yeah, I just you know, I need to I

282
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need to protect this. I have. I have really no

283
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clue on the how to really reverse the current of

284
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these this these emotional issues because I spent twenty or

285
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thirty years where all of that has flowed in the

286
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inward direction. Now I need to. I deserve, right, I

287
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deserve to feel good about it flowing out, and I

288
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don't know how to achieve that. And nobody told me.

289
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Nobody told me. How you know that this was going

290
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to happen?

291
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Well, have you seen how have you helped clients then

292
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recognize when their financial struggles are really emotional or behavioral

293
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patterns in disguise?

294
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How you know?

295
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:28.799
I'm sure, I'm sure there's a point where people are

296
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.880
become aware, But how do you help them realize all

297
00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:34.880
this these are emotional things going on?

298
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Well, that is kind of self fulfilling people. Typically, when

299
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people show up at my doorstep, they have made that.

300
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.759
I don't have to convince them of that. Yeah, no,

301
00:20:53.240 --> 00:21:00.000
they they have gone through the I need a therapist.

302
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.400
You know, I'm depressed, I'm anxious, whatever, And I know

303
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.079
this is around money. And then just where we started out,

304
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:13.279
I'm worried about financial therapy. I didn't know it was

305
00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:16.039
a thing, so here I am.

306
00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:22.279
So I'm I'm wondering if what you're doing is I'm

307
00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:25.759
wondering if what you're describing is people like having self

308
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compassion and realizing they need to heal their relationship with money.

309
00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:34.880
I don't think people are ever going to heal the

310
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relationship with money unless they come to an awareness of that.

311
00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:44.759
Yeah. I mean, I think back to your previous question. Yeah,

312
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.960
they've taken the first step, but it's like, Okay, I

313
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don't feel well. I know I have some kind of

314
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.000
emotional problem. I know it's connected with money, but I

315
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.400
don't know what's the next step. You know, I don't

316
00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:05.200
know where to go with this. So yeah, then absolutely,

317
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.640
what what I do is really start to help them

318
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:19.400
decompose that. I mean, it is very traditional. Excuse me,

319
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:26.319
at least my approach is pretty traditional from a therapeutic side.

320
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.880
I'm a big fan of narrative therapy. One of the

321
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:38.039
things that I see the people that hill my doorstep

322
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.640
is they have this story about themselves. You know, here,

323
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.599
I'm not good with money, you know, here's the mistakes,

324
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.200
I need all these things. And so I really like

325
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:51.920
to use narrative therapy to help to decompose and rebuild

326
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.880
that narrative they have about themselves. Let's move it over.

327
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.839
Would be like a first session would look like, then, uh,

328
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:03.839
let's get into it kind of in practice, you know,

329
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:06.559
So would that be where you would start with the

330
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:08.200
first session with someone.

331
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:18.799
The first session is is generally more information gathering that

332
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:27.599
there's there's there's more, there's typically a lot of uncovered. Yeah,

333
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:32.240
so in a first session, I might very well talk

334
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:40.119
about my use of narrative therapy, and I might kind

335
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:43.599
of have some comments like it sounds like you've got

336
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:47.599
this story about yourself. You sound like it's you know,

337
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:50.119
you really see yourself in a in a very negative light,

338
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.240
you know, something like that. But to really get into

339
00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:57.000
it is is it can be a lot of sessions.

340
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:01.119
Right, well, can you walk us through an example, you know,

341
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.880
without any names or anything, of course, but can you

342
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:08.599
walk us through an example of how financial therapy helps

343
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.799
somebody transform their financial and emotional life.

344
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:14.759
Can you think of think of a client?

345
00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.319
Sure, sure, I'll give you a couple, Okay, a couple.

346
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.839
I mean, I'll give you a story about a couple.

347
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.519
So this couple came to me, and this is really

348
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:35.839
I think I see a lot of this. Is here's

349
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:40.359
the one party. They're making a bunch of money. The

350
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:49.559
other party is making somewhat less money. They the one

351
00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:54.720
party is very money savvy, really a lot of you know,

352
00:24:55.319 --> 00:25:00.000
financial stuff. The other party is very is very money avoiding.

353
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:02.440
Also technical.

354
00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:07.160
Yeah, yeah, and they are trying to come together the

355
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.440
the one party is like, I really want us to plan.

356
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:15.799
I want us to I want I need to understand

357
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:18.640
what you're doing as far as saving for retirement. And

358
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.200
I'm really anxious that I don't know what you're doing.

359
00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:26.559
And my parents, my father was really bad was finances

360
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:31.759
and it turned out that when when he tried to retire,

361
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:35.519
he really really struggled. And I'm really I'm really anxious

362
00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:39.480
about not knowing that you're saving and that at some

363
00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:42.440
point this is going to destroy us. We don't have

364
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.720
a good plan and things. The wheels may come off

365
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.519
ten years from now, and I'm worried about it now. Okay,

366
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:52.039
that's the one side. The other side is I can't

367
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.720
stand to talk about money every time the other party

368
00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:59.000
wants to talk about it. I all I want to

369
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.079
do is withdraw. I just want to go get in

370
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:03.799
bed and put a pillow over my head and shut

371
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:09.000
out the world. And in that case, I worked individually

372
00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:18.359
with the avoidant party and we had like three sessions

373
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:25.640
of just talking through all of the everything that was

374
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.359
going on, and where we got to was that person

375
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:33.319
had they had some credit card debt. It was not

376
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.960
very large in the scheme of things, and I helped

377
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:42.039
to normalize that. Once I did that, they started to

378
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.680
feel better and more secure. Then we spent some time

379
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:50.519
where they went through and they hadn't all their credit

380
00:26:50.599 --> 00:26:52.680
had like four credit cards that were all in collections

381
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:59.839
because they had just like, yeah, we walked through step

382
00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:05.599
by step, got them, let's just start working on this.

383
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:11.000
Once they started working on it, and I this isn't me,

384
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:16.440
but I think having someone a financial therapist there really

385
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:20.160
gave that person much more security and much more confidence

386
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:24.480
to move forward. They knew that they weren't alone. They

387
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:29.640
unfortunately they they firmly believed if they exposed this to

388
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.319
their partner, their partner, who was this financially savvy side

389
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:36.319
of the equation, was like, yeah, this is horrible. You're

390
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.960
a horrible person. You know, you're not paying your credit

391
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:46.039
card bill. So it was a yeah, that was a

392
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.759
really successful I'm telling you a big success to it,

393
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:51.920
because that was a really success, really successful story over

394
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.400
a period of a couple of months to get that

395
00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:59.319
turned around. But I firmly believed that that was as

396
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:06.079
much about just someone being there on the therapy side

397
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:11.960
that was comfortable talking about money and new new kind

398
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.039
of the you know, the ins and outs of those

399
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:18.880
pieces that made made a big difference.

400
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:24.599
Right, Wow, Well, how do you balance I mean, like

401
00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:28.279
there's a practical side of money management, right, you know

402
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:31.599
where you're just doing the stuff you need to do

403
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:36.200
to keep everything going. How do you balance the practical

404
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.480
side of money management with that whole emotional side in

405
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:40.000
your work?

406
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.920
Boy, that's a great question. These are all great questions.

407
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:50.640
That's that's I mean, that's a that's a a tough

408
00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:54.480
one in the especially in terms of expectations where you know,

409
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:56.519
I've had people that you know it say, Okay, I'm

410
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:58.039
going to start I'm want to start seeing you as

411
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:01.839
a financial therapist. Can I say, use some spreadsheets? And

412
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:07.680
my response is, WHOA, We've got to we really, this

413
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.079
isn't about me just looking at your spreadsheets. We've got

414
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:13.559
to understand the issues and talk through the issues and

415
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:19.079
before we get to the practical. I mean, the whole

416
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:24.319
problem in financial planning is that you're you're you're in

417
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:29.160
the practical on the day on day one. And the

418
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:32.559
thing that I do that I think is important is

419
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.720
I provide reassurance that we will get to the practical.

420
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.960
But here's what we have to It's not going to

421
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:43.559
be helpful for me to tell you how to do

422
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:47.799
a budget if you're still you know, carrying you know,

423
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:50.640
all of this money avoid and stuff or whatever.

424
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:56.640
So you know, yeah, it's kind of like, isn't it

425
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:58.920
kind of like that the whole emotional side of it

426
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.440
needs to be a foundation exactly exactly.

427
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:03.880
I mean, I mean you can think of it as

428
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:08.480
the foundation is in some way broken or in disrepair

429
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.759
to a degree that has really resulted in some serious dysfunction,

430
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:17.359
and so you have to go back and understand that

431
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:19.279
and figure out how you're going to do that repair.

432
00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:25.759
Well, So, John, how do you you help clients?

433
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:30.920
Are there certain exercises or tools that you use to

434
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:36.599
help clients uncover like money scripts or patterns or habits

435
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:41.359
that are harming them.

436
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.240
I'm not a big user that there's a whole bunch

437
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.480
of tools out there. You know, little surveys you can

438
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.599
take that gives you puts you in are you are

439
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.000
you money avoidant? Are you a money status person? You know,

440
00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:02.960
there's there's different ways. Yeah, I'm not I really take

441
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:09.960
each individual very individually, full transparency. I only work part time,

442
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:15.200
so I see a limited number of people, and I

443
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:25.559
really work hard to understand what their story is and

444
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:29.519
how we how we make our way through that. Then

445
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:33.279
we're on a journey together and it's just everybody's different,

446
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.720
you know, everybody's got their own little nuances. I think

447
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:40.480
that in this work, we tend to get people that

448
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:49.559
have really multi layered problems and multifaceted problems, so they

449
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:53.880
can be very very complex, you know, a lot, a

450
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:55.920
lot to unpack.

451
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:01.119
How how can you measure success? Then? Do you did?

452
00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:05.440
Are you looking for something when you're working with somebody?

453
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:09.359
But how how would you measure Okay, I've been successful

454
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:10.279
with this client?

455
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.039
Well, I I do that in two ways. I think

456
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.839
one is I asked them what what the success look like?

457
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.400
Why are you here? What are you trying to fix?

458
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:30.519
And then I, on the other hand, trying and apply

459
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:34.440
my own, you know, kind of professional view of what

460
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.559
what what are some of the things that we need

461
00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:41.240
to work on. The work is slow, it's that's that's

462
00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:46.000
one of the real challenges is I think for any therapist,

463
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.480
is that a lot of this stuff has been many

464
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:55.839
years in the making and you're not going to do it. Yeah, yeah,

465
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:59.759
in three sessions. I will tell you that one of

466
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:04.680
the the things that as a man in a in

467
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:10.279
a largely female dominated profession, I see a fair number

468
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:19.160
of men where it's it is whatever is on the

469
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:21.880
plate that day. And I mean I talk to people

470
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:26.480
about trying to help them with thinking about their home renovations,

471
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.799
how they're raising their kids. Uh, you know, their relationship

472
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.160
with their spouse, you know, all these all these different pieces.

473
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:37.720
But I really believe that there's a lot of really

474
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.720
isolated and lonely men out there, and being in therapy

475
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:46.519
with another man is just a beneficial thing that they

476
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:48.720
keep coming back for. Cool.

477
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.079
Well, you've spoken about I mean, we talked a little

478
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.759
bit at the beginning about you transitioning out of traditional employment.

479
00:33:58.200 --> 00:33:59.359
And you'll probably laugh.

480
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:03.640
At this, but did financial therapy enter into your journey?

481
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.960
You know, and and how you came to this? Did

482
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:09.760
you or were you.

483
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:13.199
Did you feel like, oh, I'm good, I'm perfect. Did

484
00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:16.360
you have to do your own financial therapy?

485
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:21.079
I was. I was doing my own financial therapy kind

486
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:23.960
of ten years ahead of schedule. And so I'll tell

487
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.280
you that what so the in the so the Great

488
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:35.440
Recession came along, and I had, you know, a bunch

489
00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:39.360
of I had like four or five different retire by

490
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:43.400
the T I A A Crest four O three B

491
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.920
thing because I worked in university, I or A I

492
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:48.679
just a bunch of different accounts, And of course they

493
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:52.480
all got hammered by the by the Great Recession, but

494
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:56.480
I was working and I wouldn't really pay them out

495
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:00.599
of attention to it. But I came to the conclusion

496
00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:07.000
that I needed to consolidate what I was doing. Right,

497
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.239
I've gotten into these accounts, as we all do, and

498
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.320
there's tons of research on this. I'm like, okay, you know,

499
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.320
here's here's your your gro one K plan, and here's

500
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.199
the six different mutual funds you can sign up for it.

501
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:22.960
So I was, you know, things were you know, yeah,

502
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.480
where I had all this stuff that was really there

503
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.840
was no plan. It was like chaos. You know, what

504
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.239
did I think about twenty years ago? And I signed

505
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:35.960
up for that, you know that that mutual fund. And

506
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.320
so the one thing that I figured out was I

507
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:43.480
need to just consolidate all this stuff and really make

508
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.719
it start to make sense, because retirement feels like it's

509
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:50.360
ten years away. I was in my late fifties, like, hey,

510
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:54.159
I really need to get serious about this. And I

511
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:59.320
looked at all of this and I had I have

512
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:04.000
an older who's who's been very into investing and has

513
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:07.079
likes to do that, and I've been pretty good at it.

514
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:09.679
And I looked at all this and it was like,

515
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:15.320
I don't really know what I'm doing, but I do

516
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.360
know that this is a really emotional thing, and is

517
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:23.840
I should I should not be doing it. I should

518
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:28.280
hand this over to someone else, and I don't want

519
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:32.199
to when when the market's taking a dive, have to

520
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:34.719
be thinking about what I should sell or you know,

521
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:39.000
what's happening. And so I went and I put everything

522
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:44.760
into it with a you know, an investment advisor, and

523
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.119
it's it's expensive, but it was to me, it's been

524
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:51.840
it's been well worth it because I'm just my My

525
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.800
advisor will call me and they want to tell me

526
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:56.800
about what you know, here's the decisions we're making, and

527
00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:00.400
I'm like, I'm paying you to not have this call

528
00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:02.960
with me. I don't. I don't want to know.

529
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:08.840
My experience has been I've had people say, you know,

530
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:14.119
you can never retire because for me, you know, yeah,

531
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.519
doing all the money management and everything, but really behind

532
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:19.840
that was a whole lot.

533
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:23.679
Of trust and what I was doing.

534
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:28.840
So so I guess we're running up on the end

535
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:29.880
of our time together.

536
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.079
It always happens way too soon.

537
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:34.519
But I want to ask you, what advice would you

538
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:41.320
give someone who's nearing retirement who feels anxious about their

539
00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:45.880
financial future despite you know, like what you were talking about.

540
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.639
They're feeling prepared. They say, oh, I'm prepared, but they're

541
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.480
still anxious. What kind of advice would you give that person?

542
00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:01.280
Well, I think that one thing is to find somebody

543
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:04.880
to talk to. They shouldn't be alone. It is a

544
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:10.880
starting point, uh, you know, a relative, peer, coworker. Find

545
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.559
somebody to talk to so they can get some some

546
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:18.159
different points of view. Think about how how this is

547
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.440
going to work. Talk to some retired people about how

548
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:24.599
the people that they think are you know that they

549
00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:28.920
kind of admire or think there are excuse it being successful.

550
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:33.440
I think that the the other piece is that and

551
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:38.719
this I'm not not shopping for business here, but if

552
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.159
they feel like there is such a level of dysfunction,

553
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.679
you know, seek out a financial therapist, get some help.

554
00:38:46.519 --> 00:38:51.519
You know, you're I think it's really important to see

555
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:55.039
this as a journey that you don't want to do

556
00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:01.199
by yourself. Right, It's okay to get help, and.

557
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.559
Most people who listen on a regular basis know this.

558
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:09.199
But on my website is a place where all where

559
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:11.800
the information. You'll be able to go to it find

560
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:14.960
a PDF that has all of John's information. So if

561
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:18.599
you do want to contact John about that, then information

562
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.800
about where you can find them is there. So let's

563
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:25.199
kind of do a little bit of big picture takeaways

564
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:29.840
type of thing. First of all, what do you wish

565
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:33.760
more financial professionals? Maybe somebody like me, but I think

566
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:36.039
I've learned a lot about this sort of thing along

567
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:39.760
my road. But what do you wish more financial professionals

568
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:45.760
and therapists understood about the connection between money and mental health.

569
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:49.119
I don't think they really.

570
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.840
I wish they understood more of the work of the

571
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:58.639
Financial Therapy Association, that it addresses both of those professions

572
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:03.840
in some really really very very useful ways and ways

573
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:09.480
that they that they mean. They could become financial therapy informed.

574
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:11.880
They don't have to become financial therapists, but they could

575
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:16.360
could become more informed about the work of the Financial

576
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:19.960
Therapy Association and how they can apply that to their work.

577
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:23.239
Right, well, what is what We're going to have to

578
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.480
wrap this up? But what would you say would be

579
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:32.280
one small step that somebody could take to begin improving

580
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:36.199
the relationship with money?

581
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:43.719
Oh well, I think recognizing they have a relationship and yeah,

582
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:51.480
kind of really looking at are they are they know,

583
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.960
looking at a scarcity coming from a place of scarcity?

584
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.360
Are they looking at it? This is a status piece?

585
00:40:57.400 --> 00:40:59.920
What is their relationship with money? And again, you know

586
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:03.639
there's there's I think there's material out there they could

587
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:06.440
read that could help them to start to do that

588
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:07.599
kind of self evaluation.

589
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:11.559
Right right, Well, you're making me think.

590
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.159
I mean, the latest book that I wrote was for

591
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:18.320
divorced people or people that have lost a spouse, and

592
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.800
oh my, you know, there's so much dysfunction that goes

593
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:26.159
along with someone who's feeling like they're having to start

594
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:28.840
their life over like I had to twenty five years ago,

595
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:33.320
or someone who's who had a spouse that said oh honey,

596
00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:35.320
I'll take care of everything and then they die.

597
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:40.559
And so yeah, I think that people.

598
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.559
No matter what kind of situation they have, You're right,

599
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:46.079
they're not going to make a change. They're not going

600
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:49.199
to get moved forward. If they don't recognize that it's

601
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.000
you know, at the very beginning that they're going to

602
00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:51.840
have to do something.

603
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:55.440
Yeah, I definitely agree.

604
00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.599
Yeah, so John, with that, our time is up.

605
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.000
Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you

606
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:07.679
so much for all this fantastic This is such an

607
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:12.960
important topic and it it impacts everyone, you know, really,

608
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:15.920
you know, we all you know, life can get kind

609
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:19.239
of crazy sometime, but I think that with this kind

610
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.800
of assistance, people can really have some peace of mind

611
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.599
so they can move forward into retirement, you know, with

612
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.800
joy and to go out and make a make a

613
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:34.920
new you know, be able to go contribute in new ways.

614
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:39.480
Yeah, I'm with you. That's we deserve it. It all

615
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:42.480
works hard, Yes, we deserve a good retirement.

616
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:47.320
Yes, so John, with that, and for all of you

617
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:49.800
out there listening, thank you so much for joining us

618
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.360
today and the Ask Good Questions Podcast.

619
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:54.039
We'll see you next time.

620
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:59.639
Thanks Anita. Today's episode is over.

621
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:03.360
We did Ask Good Questions again, didn't We don't miss

622
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:07.480
out as we broadcast live every Wednesday, six pm Eastern

623
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:12.159
Time on W four CY Radio at W fourcy dot com.

624
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:15.880
Joined Venina Bellm We're saying next week for more conversations

625
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:21.960
with experts on finances, retirement, behavioral finance issues, health and wellness.

626
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.119
And more.

627
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:26.480
Until then, remember to ask good questions.